Christian Business Without Compartmentalization: Faith, Success, and Surrender (Andrea Anderson)

00:00:01
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm joined today by Andrea Anderson, who is a Christian business coach and author. She's written a couple of different books. I think you have one coming out here in twenty twenty six as well, but the one I had the pleasure of reading today was Breadlke Rain and So I'm excited to welcome Andrea to the show and interested in our conversation. So welcome Andrea. Thanks for being on the show.

00:00:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.

00:00:58
Speaker 1: Absolutely So, I I've done a fair amount of consulting myself, so I'm kind of interested in your background and how you got into consulting, what really drove you there and maybe what your passions are. So why don't you introduce yourself a little bit to the audience and give a bit of your background.

00:01:15
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So one of the things I like to start with, especially when I'm talking to a Christian audience, is that I was not always Christian.

00:01:22
Speaker 2: In fact, I grew up.

00:01:24
Speaker 3: In what I call a cultural Christian home, and then I went through a period of being atheist agnostic, kind of bounced between the two in my early teens to kind of mid twenties, and so it was out of that actually, through the death of my grandfather that got me to reconsider. So I like to share it because I think it's really easy to make assumptions, especially when you're talking to someone in a format like this, like assuming, oh, like she's always known the look, and that's so far from the truth. So that's a little bit on the personal side. On the business side, the consulting, really, where I came into it was out of a time of prayer where I was asking the Lord, how do I actually help people on a transformative level. This came out of a different business that I had at the time, where I was sensing there was more going on for the people that I was encountering than in this case it was an organizing business. Then it was just like, oh, I don't know how to organize my stuff, and the idea of going into a space organizing it but going back to chaos wasn't sitting well with me. So I again I was asking the Lord, how do I help people on a transformative level, And for the first time ever in my faith walk, I heard almost audibly life coach. You know, I was spoken into my spirit. And this was in the early two thousands, like coaching was virtually unheard of. I'm like, what is a life coach?

00:02:48
Speaker 2: And I'm like, am I making this up?

00:02:51
Speaker 3: And so I was like, okay, Lord, if this is you, not me, I'll google it and it'll be a thing, which it was. So that's where I got my certification. I'll skip over a lot of the middle parts of my story, but really the while I am here to work with Christian business owners and help them apply a surrendered strategy method to their business to maximize their profitability make it sustainable. Really, what my work represents is the deeper level transformation that God wants to do in them and also through them, because that's what lasts into eternity.

00:03:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. So you were in the organization business, if I'm understanding correctly, you were doing more like, you know, helping people clean up the mess of their lives in physical spaces. Yeah, and then and then kind of pivoted over into more of a symbolic organizing lives, you know, symbolic theological organizing lives.

00:03:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:03:54
Speaker 1: That's really cool.

00:03:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fun to see how God works.

00:03:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit more about your you know, sort of non Christian background. I grew up. It sounds like we have a lot in common because I grew up Lutheran. I should say I grew up attending a Lutheran church, but really just not caring one way or the other, you know, about being a Lutheran or particularly about being Christian. Didn't have any sort of interest in Jesus per Se was really I just saw, you know, what I was learning at church is a good way to stay out of trouble, and so I'm interested to just dive a little bit more into that.

00:04:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:04:36
Speaker 3: So I'm originally from Canada and before we moved to the States, which is where I live now. We went to an Anglican church, so I equivalent like Anglican episcopals, like the parallel to that in the States and Lutheran and a methodis is like kind of like the OG like the OG churches from on the Protestant side, and so yeat. Likewise, we went to church. My parents were heavily involved. We loved the church that we went to. It was very family oriented. So I have fond memories of like going to Sunday School, being involved in the things the church would put on for families, helping in Sunday School as I got older. But yeah, that idea of a relationship with Jesus in any in my nuclear family, like that idea was if somebody had asked us that we'd been like, what do you mean, Like, we go to church, we do the things, like what are you talking about a relationship. And so when we moved to the States, my mom especially wanted to try and find another church because it's just like this is what we do, you know, And we did land on one in an Episcopal church, but it wasn't it wasn't vibrant on many levels. And again, when you especially when you don't have a relationship with the Lord. I see picking churches and I talk to put.

00:06:02
Speaker 2: This in the book. It's like it's like a restaurant. It's like where are we going to eat today? You know.

00:06:08
Speaker 3: So at some point, like my dad was, I could tell and I was in my early teens, I could tell that he wasn't really interested, and at some point I think he was just like I don't want to go. So I was like, well, Dad's not going, I'm not going. Yeah. And then what really kicked me into that atheism agnostic period was I was in I think seventh grade and we were learning about evolution, and for whatever reason, I don't know why, my conclusion was, well, that explains the way the need for God. So I was kind of like, you know, washed my hands of him and I'm like going on my married way and unbelief. But that that's kind of what the early stage.

00:06:52
Speaker 1: Like very good. Yeah, And so you came to faith and got into really life coaching. Were you are a Christian at that point? Correct or no? Yes, kind of clarify the timeline, Yeah, I.

00:07:06
Speaker 2: Know, that's that's good clarification. Yes, Like I.

00:07:11
Speaker 3: So I don't have an exact date of belief. I know it was somewhere around shoot thousand and like three two thousand and five, So yeah, somewhere around there, like around twenty years ago. But just because I God was so my grandfather died in the time that I was dating my husband, and when we got engaged and were playing for a marriage, like by that point my heart had softened, softened enough where it's like, oh, I want.

00:07:40
Speaker 2: A minister to marry us. But I know I wasn't a believer at that point.

00:07:43
Speaker 3: It was just the Lord was bringing me along because my grandfather died, my husband and I were dating, got engaged and all that. So, and then when I became pregnant with our first child we have four, I know at some point there was some sort of belief that was happening. I just don't have that exact day. When I moved from you know, curious like I think there's something there to Oh, yes, I need to accept christ.

00:08:10
Speaker 1: Very cool. Well, talk to me a little bit about so you're you're now into Christian business coaching, and one of the things you said just a minute ago was you were tired of organized, helping people organize and then seeing things fall back into chaos. And I will say sadly that sometimes my experience consulting was just that, you know, it was like whenever I had institutions keep calling me back and calling me back, I'm going but I could have sworn we had this fixed the last time, like what happened? So how do you deal with that ongoing? Now? Is that a shift in your consulting practice that you found that that that you get a little bit more of a during or i'm sorry, a durable result out of what you're doing now?

00:09:01
Speaker 3: Yes, And I love that you ask that question because this is something that the Lord has been bringing into greater clarity about, like one what I need to look out for in my own business, but also really look out for in clients.

00:09:14
Speaker 2: And one of.

00:09:15
Speaker 3: The themes that he's highlighted is how self reliance and control that's what creates like the chaos the disarray. Because I've noticed that when you are called to lead in some ways, so in this case a business, you you're a lot of your default and what your inherent characteristics are to get things done, Like you typically have a high capacity, you're very comfortable doing, achieving, making decisions, and you need that as a leader. Otherwise you're not going to be leading, You'll want to follow you.

00:09:51
Speaker 2: Right.

00:09:51
Speaker 3: So, but because we live in a fallen world, you know, there's always like kind of like a shadow aspect some of our gifts where gets distorted. And so what happens is when we have these natural inherent characteristics that on the one side are helpful and needed at some point there they actually work against us because we overstep the boundaries.

00:10:14
Speaker 2: And what I've.

00:10:15
Speaker 3: Noticed for myself as well as in clients is like we often like get in the weeds and we're trying to approach, especially when it's a business and a vision the Lord has given you. We're trying to solve the issues like at the ground level instead of pulling our eyes up and like building and moving from like a top down aspect. And so I know the reason that my clients get lasting results and I don't see that repeating pattern of chaos is because I'm constantly asking them what is the Lord saying. I'm constantly pointing their eyes to him and asking them to get clear and to get confirmation of like what what is the blueprint? What is he asking you to do? And then we move from there, I mean and there's a lot of pieces to it. I'm also listening for where are they out of sync with God? Where's that misalignment coming in? Why is it there? And then we have to pull that out. So it's like shifting patterns, like removing disruptive patterns. And because we have the Lord like he we're building for essentially a turn eternal results, right, So we're looking at what is the deeper transformation and foundational work the Lord wants to do and in him as long as your heart is I want what you want, Lord, which is why my clients come to me. That's what they want. That's why it's it lasts. It's also why when I'm working with clients in one on one and intense why I only work with Christians because I can work on surface level business issues with non believers. But when you're talking talking about transformation and lasting results that only comes through Jesus.

00:12:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. So I teach on leadership for Wheaton College and one of the things that I talk about in class is that leadership should emerge from discipleship. And it just strikes me that we have some resonance on that is that you know you're as a leader. You're not just deciding that you are going to follow Jesus until it's inconvenient to do so, and then you're going to implement a business strategy whether he likes it or not. You're trying to actually follow him even in your business practices. Not simply from an ethical standpoint, although I think that's important too, but from a directional and transformational perspective, yes, exactly.

00:12:52
Speaker 3: So.

00:12:53
Speaker 1: Do you work primarily then one on one kind of with leaders?

00:12:57
Speaker 3: That is, That's how I do love to work with clients because well, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, when you work one on one, when you have somebody's attention all on you, like, you just get to you know, get you get that momentum, you get to the root and also the clarity a lot faster. I do also have a group component as well.

00:13:20
Speaker 2: For people.

00:13:20
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's for one on one clients who are ready to transition from kind of more of that intense work, but they like that continued focus. And then sometimes it's people will come to me through group and then move into.

00:13:31
Speaker 2: One on one with me.

00:13:33
Speaker 3: But yeah, the one on one and also because again I'm listening for where there's misalignment. And I can do that in a group setting to a certain extent, but really it gets to a point where I'm like, I really just need to be in the room one on one with them.

00:13:52
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's interesting. I you know, as you're talking about it, I do mostly organizational stuff when I do it, so it does tend to Yes, the leader needs to sort of be guiding and directing and figuring out where they want to go. And when I've had those opportunities to sort of help leaders, I do see better results. I see more durable results. When I'm just working with an organization and kind of implementing or trying to optimize one area, you don't see it as durable. Things tend to slip. And I think it's partially because you're not really you know, you're aligning a system, but then all the people who are involved in that system really have to be on the same page. You're assuming a lot, I guess, is what I'm saying when you're working on that system's approach and you're not really addressing the people side of it as much.

00:14:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in that kind of setting, I mean, you have a lot of different personalities and strengths and yeah, it's like have they bought into it? How do they really feel I'm sure from an organizational level, like are they being compared held versus like when you're working one.

00:15:01
Speaker 2: On one with the leader, you assume like they want to be there.

00:15:05
Speaker 3: You know, they're not being in most cases like being for I guess it could be a they're not like the CEO. I guess they could be told to do this, But most of the time it's like, Okay, I'm going with you. But yeah, yeah, that's also why I believe too with that, I mean, there definitely are effective ways to do groups, and I have seen in the way that I do group sessions that clients do get the results that they want because again I'm putting it the court more in the Lord's hands, like helping them to look at him.

00:15:38
Speaker 2: But I think a lot.

00:15:39
Speaker 3: Of times in groups, in group settings, yeah, it's yeah, it just caps what you're able to do without some like one on one On the side.

00:15:52
Speaker 1: I tend to agree. Interesting, Yeah, I mean I wonder so as you've as you done the consulting with business leaders, how much of this do you find really carries over into the church. It's it's difficult for me sometimes to to walk into a church and not notice things that, you know, when I've gotten you know, if I've just especially if I've just gotten done with the consulting engagement, I sort of have that mindset and I walk in and I'm like, oh, geez, we could fix that. How do you How do you think about that? When you're you know, sitting in church with a pastor and with other you know, leaders, do you see them sort of you find yourself wishing you could you could help them as well?

00:16:39
Speaker 3: Yes, Like, thankfully I'm at a church where I feel like the leadership is as solid as leadership can be, you know, not like not we're not going to find perfection.

00:16:49
Speaker 2: Right, but.

00:16:52
Speaker 3: So I appreciate that. I appreciate the heart and intent at least the leaders at our church approach approach things. I think what I see happening is more in that area of the like what we do from Sunday's service, like the discipleship, the application, because like as I listen to the messages of the sermon, and especially lately it's been interesting, it's like what our pastor has been sharing, I'm like, yep, like these are the insights that he has been showing me and like where where the gaps are, where the challenges are. But then what I think, and especially given the work with clients, I'm like, okay, but how many people that are sitting here are actually applying it? And because that's what happens when I have clients coming to me, It's like there's this kind of I know, God needs to be part of it, but what does that actually look like? Like people still think a little bit more like the God box, like the work box, the family, So it's more that and also appreciating that the leadership of our churches only have so much capacit as well.

00:18:02
Speaker 2: So so yeah, just more along those lines.

00:18:07
Speaker 3: But I will say when I when I more like anecdotally hear about challenges in other churches where it's a leadership issue, like that's where I'm like, oh that, like I would love to help correct that, but that's not my calling at this moment.

00:18:23
Speaker 2: It is businesses.

00:18:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I appreciate that. I just kind of wanted to hear you talk through some of that. Let me let me pivot a little bit and maybe talk about some of the ideas I was reading about your website. I read about in your book. I'm interested just to hear a little bit about how you navigate the the ideas of following God and success in today's world. That's one of those topics that I've always had a little bit of trouble with, you know, trying to figure out like, yes, following the Lord is what we're supposed to do, but it doesn't always lead to the sort of success that we're looking for as far as I can tell. And I'm just wondering if you can talk through that a little bit and kind of help me understand your perspective on it.

00:19:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's interesting because that's actually what before this podcast says, like, Okay, Lord, what are we going to be talking about?

00:19:13
Speaker 2: What do you want to share?

00:19:15
Speaker 3: And the problem is how we define success, right because and I think when I was when I had reached out to you, and it's like, would you be interested in having this conversation what the Lord has shown me? And where that where the problems come in, is where we confuse what we know with what we actually believe. Right. So we know, for example, God is trustworthy, but in certain situations do we believe he's actually trustworthy?

00:19:46
Speaker 2: No?

00:19:47
Speaker 3: That is where all of the problems come in. And so when it comes to success, we have to be very careful about how we are individually defining it because and the way the application that I see for business, for example, is I do believe if God has called you to business, it is meant to be financially successful, because that's actually the definition of a business. Like if you don't have a bit, if you don't have a financial success, like you have an expensive hobby or a liability or a self funded nonprofit. Right Like, to me, it doesn't make sense that God would call you to a model that literally means you are building for profitability.

00:20:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we also.

00:20:39
Speaker 3: Have to keep in mind profitability is one aspect of success, it's also how we are building in the process. And I really believe that God is more interested and cares more about our internal and eternal success then ultimately what's happening on the outside.

00:21:02
Speaker 2: Right. So, I mean I've seen for.

00:21:06
Speaker 3: Myself that certainly marriage and motherhood has definitely refined me, but being called to entrepreneurship or really whatever you're called to, He is going to refine you through it because we need to be purified, right, And so it is a trust walk. It's a faith walk. And what I've realized, yeah, through challenges and through like really hard moments, is that one, if I have a financially successful business but my health and my relationships are compromised, well, is God really going to be like yay you No, it's going to be like that's a problem, right, Or or if you are not building according to how he is asking you, if you're saying I don't believe you God like that you've called me to this, or I'm deciding I'm calling all the shots and it's actually he's like, okay, but I'm going to cap your profitability even if you're like succeeding in other areas of life. Again, it's like it's inconsistent. So yeah, I guess what I come back to is if we're sincere in saying your will not mine, that also means his definition of success, his timeline of success, and like all of the pieces. Yeah, yeah, in that part, if.

00:22:30
Speaker 1: I go back, you know, you mentioned you know some people still think about the god box, the business box, the family boxing, and we have these sort of this way of compartmentalizing, right, and it isn't you know, it's unlike you know, jumping into the water, right, it's impossible not to get wet when you immerse yourself in water, if you're just wet. But when we box things up, we can tend to just sort of let God leak into these other areas when we when we feel like it's necessary. Right, I'll be good enough at family, good enough at business, you know, I'll be a nice ethical person. But yeah, as far as letting Christ lead this, like, I don't know, what does he really know about the financial services industry or you know, whatever have you. And so there there's an interesting like just going back to that idea kind of what I what I think I hear you saying, is that if we're to give ourselves to God with all we are and have right sort of that Deuteronomy six four and five Christ, you know, mind soul strength. He repeats that in the New Testament, we're really looking at it as there is a capacity that each one of us has to do that, and there's a there's a sense in which, yes, I can give all I have, but I really can't get more. And and if I if I'm giving part of myself away to business and ruining my health, ruining my relationships, ruining my I'm not really loving God with all I am and have. I'm really loving business and trying to tie God in, and so that success comes as we figure out how to order those loves appropriately. Is that a fair sort of way to riff on that, I guess yeah.

00:24:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's always like first things first, right, God first, and we know he does want to be in all areas of our life, like it isn't just it isn't just partial or when we decide or you know, we're like how you.

00:24:35
Speaker 2: Know, it's like all the things and yes and like from there.

00:24:39
Speaker 3: So if he's if he's called you to marriage, then it's also you know, God marriage, kids.

00:24:45
Speaker 2: Like all of that. But yeah, it's it's a balance and.

00:24:52
Speaker 3: It's also highly personal. I think that's also why I like one on one work because God, God doesn't like, he doesn't work in cookie He doesn't create cookie cutters. So while there's principles that apply to all of us, like the nuances of that are going to look different. And yeah, so that anyway, it's just like a fascinating journey.

00:25:18
Speaker 1: No, I agree, And I mean I think just if I think back over my career, just through time, I think I would react and respond. And if I went back into my old position that I left when I was really burnt out, when I had decided that, you know, work was more important than family, and you know, work was more important than health, like I was that guy, I went back into that same position today, I'd be okay, I'd handle it completely differently because I've had I've had this sort of time of refinement where I don't know that I meant to submit to God. I knew I needed to change something and went in a direction that I didn't expect, you know, But I'd be lying if I said it felt it felt more haphazard to me than it did determinative. Right, Yes, But I do think that that refining that happens across that time is really crucial, and so having someone like you come alongside and say, you know, kind of nudge you in those directions would have been really helpful. I had that occasionally, but I think everybody sort of needs it m hm.

00:26:33
Speaker 3: Right, because we all have blind spots, and also because in our mind, like we can create this echo chamber where our thoughts sound good to us. But the other piece of the Lord has been having me lean into is really the language that people are using, right, so when we're talking, we're not always aware of word choices that we have that are actually where we're speaking death or partnering in agreement with what essentially becomes a word curse instead of speaking life or believing life as well. It's just like it's we just don't have we're not able to step outside ourselves to see that. And so that's why, yes, like when you work with someone, why we see if it's the right person to work with that acceleration on that trajectory. And I've seen that even for myself, Like if I think back to even just last year, the amount of growth personally and business wise came be caught out of It really came with working with this one person who was able to call out things that I hadn't been able to see or hadn't realized how profoundly it was actually impacting many areas of my life. And once that was called out, it's like whoah okay, Like it was hard and painful, but it was also exactly what I needed.

00:27:59
Speaker 2: And had I not.

00:28:02
Speaker 3: Gone through that, I don't know that I would have ever come to that realization. Or it's just like at what point would I have come to that realization, right, And it's consistent with the way that God has what he has written into the foundation of the world, which is we're created for a relationship because he is a god of relationship.

00:28:23
Speaker 2: So you don't see solo heroes in the Bible. Even Jesus, although he could very well have.

00:28:28
Speaker 3: Operated solo, he didn't right now, He didn't need refinement, but everybody else on planet Earth does.

00:28:36
Speaker 2: And so it's like that.

00:28:37
Speaker 3: Aspect of iron sharpening iron, like if we try to, if we think that we can figure out some of these things on our own, that is a huge level of self deception.

00:28:47
Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting, and I mean this kind of goes along with your new book as I understand it, right, thirty three Demotionals from the Life of Jesus for you know, sort of with some lessons for Christian Entrepreneurs. I know that's not the title. Maybe you give the title.

00:29:01
Speaker 3: What is the Rock Solid Business, thirty three Lessons from Jesus for Entrepreneurs.

00:29:08
Speaker 1: I got the thirty three right, I knew that, yest. Yeah, rocks allid business And that's coming out twenty twenty six, But is it already out on Amazon or did I just missma.

00:29:17
Speaker 3: No, it's not, it's not out. I was going to do it this month, but that date will probably be pushed back again a bit based on some other things God has brought up.

00:29:25
Speaker 2: But yes, like the.

00:29:26
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I know how that goes. So I guess the you know, as I think about the life of Jesus, I think one of the things I'm always cautious of is to say, yeah, I agree with you, Jesus didn't need refinement, and yet he shows us the cadence of life necessary to be obedient to the Father and all things, and that it wasn't refining for him. It was just natural. Yeah, it was the organic way that he knew he had to live life. And I don't think he was doing it as an instructional exercise. Maybe partially showing us how to do it. But I don't ever get the sense that Jesus is like, Hey, I don't really need to go off into the wilderness by myself and pray I don't actually need to do that. I'm going to do it so that you can kind of see it, because you need the refinement. But I don't I think he's really in his humanness, living this life and recognizing where his strength and power comes from. And I always find that to be a really important distinction so that we don't collapse Jesus into Yeah, he didn't need to do any of the It's like Jesus didn't really need to eat, but he did because it would have been weird if he never ate, you know, It's like, no, he's having the human experience. He doesn't have the sin that we have, but he's showing us the practices that need to be done in order to live in obedience to the Father.

00:30:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you actually for saying that, because what I meant by refinement is like he already was pure, right, Like he's perfectly got, so he didn't need to have like the impurities were fined out of.

00:31:08
Speaker 2: Him because he was already perfect. We need that part of it.

00:31:12
Speaker 3: But yes, like I do believe he he would take that time away because he knew from how critical it would be to make sure he is focused on what God was actually asking him, like that strengthening, right, Like that's why we go to him. It's like the one of the most heartbreaking things that I hear is when people think of prayer or worship or like any of those disciplines that we do as like a checklist, because it is easy to fall into that instead of like, no, this is an invitation from your father to get to know him better, to be strengthened, to be able to be aware and stand against the things of the world that pull us out of fellowship and out of alignment with him.

00:31:58
Speaker 1: He finds the people kind of thought into that because they don't want to take the time or don't feel like they have the time.

00:32:06
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and so that's a belief, right, a belief that they're happy. The belief is if I if I take the time to stop and pray or sit with the Lord. I've heard some people see that as lazy, like they think, oh, I should be doing not just sitting there. Sometimes yeah, it's they start to think that that's because they're not doing they're not stewarding. But James, as I thought about, okay, why like what is really underlying that belief? And if you think about someone, the reason we don't follow through with something that we know to be good is because there's a belief that we're holding about that that's like pulling us out of that. And what as I've asked Christians business owner or not, like, what it is? What do they believe they.

00:33:02
Speaker 2: Can hear God? For example, I'll just ask them that.

00:33:04
Speaker 3: And it's amazing the number of Christians who say, I don't know if I know how to hear God, or I don't believe that I can hear God. So, if you think about it, sitting with God and praying is essentially it isn't just telling him what you want, although we do that. The understanding is I want to hear from God. Well, if you don't believe you'll hear from him or you're not sure, well, how motivated are you going to be to want to do a practice that like causes you to just feel act right? And So when I encounter Christians who have that, I'm like, well, okay, first of all, if you believe in Jesus, like let's make sure, yeah, if you've accepted him as your Lord and savior, then you need to stand on the promises like one, as you're a good shepherd, he promises you will hear his voice.

00:33:58
Speaker 2: And because as you have.

00:34:00
Speaker 3: The Lord, he promised the Holy Spirit, which literally is our communication line to the Lord.

00:34:06
Speaker 2: So it's like you need to activate that.

00:34:08
Speaker 3: And so that's one of the things I try to do, like whether it's with clients or leading retreats or whatever, it's like, let's practice like cultivating your ability to hear from the Lord, because then you're going to be more likely to show up in that prayer time or to follow through with some of these things where it's just like about communion with the Lord and not something that makes you feel like you've done your due diligence for the day.

00:34:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there is a subtle but very real difference between viewing this as something that I check a box for and Okay, now I've done my piety for the day, I can move on, versus really deeply understanding that obedience opens the world up to us. In other words, it it gives God opportunities to really show himself to us. And probably the better way to say that is it opens our eyes to recognize what God is already doing. If we're always constantly just trying to take care of the stuff ourselves, we tend to think that we're taking care of it ourselves firstus. If we really are following Christ, we start to recognize that God is actually doing things in our life he's caring for things, he's providing. So yeah, it's really fascinating dynamic. I sense that even in my own life, where you do have these sort of subtle falsehoods that tend to drive your behavior in one way or another, you really start to believe about yourself and that those have to be You have to be pretty consistent about even questioning your own thoughts and asking is that true though, really? Or am I just sort of blocking myself out of seeing God do something really spectacular?

00:35:56
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:35:57
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And God gave me an acronym that describes that. I call it the faith optimization gap. And so the letter's fog fog or walking.

00:36:10
Speaker 2: Frond of bug.

00:36:11
Speaker 3: And again, it's that difference between what you know and what you really believe because if you if you think about it, belief belief drives us because if God didn't write the need to believe, or like, if that wasn't the core of how He created us, we wouldn't know we needed to believe in him, or there would be no like it would just like interrupt our ability to have faith.

00:36:39
Speaker 2: At all.

00:36:40
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's always it is being aware of where of that difference, that gap between what we we know or what we think in our natural mind and where true belief actually resides that is consistent with God's character and his principles and his truth.

00:37:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found it really fascinating. Over the last year or so, there's been a lot of research done on wisdom out of cognitive psychology, not like biblical wisdom or theological wisdom, but just wisdom in general, and the way they tend to boil it down. And this is a way over simplification. But we don't have that much time, so you kind of sit back and say, well, what's relevant in the moment. And it seems to me that that way of understanding wisdom, what's relevant in the moment, how do I act in line with what's prioritized in that moment? What's really relevant to me in that moment. For one, it does tend to focus on your skills, your capacities, your priorities. If I walk out into the garage it's my pad, example, and I see a bike hanging on the wall, but I can't ride a bike, it's irrelevant to me as a mode of transportation, right, Whereas if I had the skill level of rite it, I could use it in that way. But for me, it's a and so there's a capacity issue there. But ultimately, I think a lot of times, what I'm finding, even as I think about that sort of concept in my own life, is that I just don't always believe that God is that relevant in the moment, and so I'm tending to sort of push him to the side of my life and say, you're great. I know it, you're awesome. I know you created the world. But I have this task to do and I'd really like to get it done, and so maybe just you know, let me just make sure you know the infinitely relevant God, but in this moment, this email really matters or you know, whatever it is. And it's like, man, I'm really pushing I'm really pushing God out of my life. I'm marginalizing him in a way that I shouldn't be.

00:38:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it isn't just like just.

00:38:51
Speaker 3: A minute, God, I'll get back to after that, which I mean, we can laugh about it, but.

00:38:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's really what happens.

00:38:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it just speaks to his patience and who he is, and he hangs with us like knowing that that's how we can treat him. It's just like, wh'ere our priorities, where what we can see in front.

00:39:14
Speaker 2: Of us.

00:39:16
Speaker 3: Is what we gravitate toward, which is why I think Scripture says like faith is being sure of what you hope for in certain of what you do not.

00:39:27
Speaker 2: See and see.

00:39:30
Speaker 3: Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Please God, because we have to believe that he exists and that he rewards right those who seek him. And yeah, so it's really like that testing what do we really believe about Him in those moments where something tangible feels pressing.

00:39:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a good word. We're kind of coming in toward the end of our time, and so I usually have guests answer sort of one last question. So I'm interested to get your take on this. You don't have to answer it based on anything we've talked about, So whatever you want to say is great. But here's the question. What do you think the church needs to be doing that maybe it's not doing right now or it's not doing quite as well to be and make more faithful disciples today.

00:40:24
Speaker 2: Ooh, that is a big question. Okay.

00:40:33
Speaker 3: I So I was going through the Bible again like in December, like the whole Bible in December, and one of the things that the Lord had highlighted going through it this time is it has to do with the part of relationships and how we are to be in relationship with one another. And I feel like where the modern day church has evolved to is like this feel good church. I don't believe that, at least in my perception. I don't believe that as a church body, we really are following through with the.

00:41:16
Speaker 2: Church discipline model that Jesus outlined.

00:41:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:41:22
Speaker 3: I I think it's very challenging for church leadership to hold this tension between like we want to love others, but like what do we do when someone is clearly walking out of step with the Lord? And I think there is a hesitation to correct because of the messages that we get from culture. Right, it's kind of just like do what makes you happy and don't tell me what to do and being judgmental, and because it's really easy for people just to walk down the door to another or walk down the street to another church. Right.

00:42:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, And.

00:42:06
Speaker 3: I wish I had thought of some other specific scriptures but to but just looking at how we are to be in relationship with other and refining if you think about refining is not meant to be a gentle process. Like when God talks about refining, the images that go with it are a refiner's fire and pruning, right, And if you've garmened and you know what pruning is like, it's pretty yeah, you know, you look like you're ruining the plant. Like it's you know, we're not I don't know, it's not sunshine and rainbows.

00:42:41
Speaker 2: And so I think we've we've moved away from that. Yeah. The other part with.

00:42:51
Speaker 3: I don't know how like churches as far as like kind of the institution, like the buildings would go to say could can do this? Because we're also fighting against against culture that is consistently moving toward isolation. Is So I think that does make discipleship or walking out life together the way we're meant to challenging because you're literally trying to bring people to something that they might say they want but in practice becomes hard to walk out.

00:43:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:43:32
Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't like, I don't know obviously like what the answer is. But I think that's also where individually we have that responsibility because we are all part of the body of Christ. Is again, instead of putting God in a box or or deciding when we are comfortable about inviting him into our life versus like all aspects, is if we are sincere in surrendering to him and doing his will, like I trust, like he will let us know what is needed. Like for me, Yeah, this year, my word for this year is actually a f ratha the bee opened right, eyes to see, ears to hear. But it's actually in connection to relationships. So he's actually shown me where I have kept like relationships or like just have had a little bit more self focused in certain areas, and he's been this growing conviction in me about what I need to do, what he's asking me to do to be in relationship and be in community with others. So I think if we did that too, like we have the Holy Spirit helping us in that process.

00:44:55
Speaker 1: And yes, no, I think that's good. I mean I think obviously accountability is crucial, but more than anything else, what I kind of hear you saying is we need to have the conviction that where you know, where we're going on Sunday mornings is actually important beyond Sunday mornings, like this is this is who we are. It's not another thing that we voluntarily go to. It's it's our identity, and so we need to live into that identity. One of my favorite passages first John one nine, and I love it because it makes confession a mark of what the Christian life is supposed to look like. And so you know, we're we tend to be a little bit more shy about sin, and you know, we want to hide sort of what we've done wrong, and we you know, those kind of things. But first John one nine suggests that, no, this confession of sin should be part of what we do with one another. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that answer. I think it's good. And I love that you know, you're reading through the Bible again and this is sort of the part that God shows you. I think it's pretty fantastic.

00:46:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well.

00:46:07
Speaker 1: As we close up, tell people where they can find a little bit more from you. You know, give your website and then your old book is out on Amazon right now, Bread Like Rain is out on Amazon. So I'll have that link in the show notes. But yeah, give your website, talk about when the new book.

00:46:26
Speaker 2: Will be out.

00:46:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the website it's Andrea Leco dot com. I know you'll put the link in there as well. It's easier to find it that way.

00:46:35
Speaker 2: So yeah, so the.

00:46:36
Speaker 3: Website's the easiest because you can, well if you want to see a sneak peek of Bread Like Rain, and that book is about encountering God's miraculous provision in your daily life and really how it's meant to grow your faith and shape your trust in Him. So you can get a sneak peak of that if you want to see it before just getting the book on Amazon. But yes, the Rock Solid Business thirty three Lessons from Jesus for Entrepreneurs. The actual publication date is a little bit to be determined, but you can get a snee or you can sign up on the website for the wait list so that when it releases you can get it that way. And then if you're a Christian business owner, you could also get onto my email list through my website as well.

00:47:21
Speaker 2: So your website is the easiest. But yeah, thank you for asking.

00:47:25
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have that link in the show notes. I'd encourage you to check it out everybody, especially those of you who are involved in entrepreneurial pursuits. But I will say I found Breadla Like Rain to be helpful to me, and I'm not particularly an entrepreneur, and so I would encourage everybody just to take a look at it. And I think it was a really good read. And I appreciated a lot of your insights both in the book and on the podcast Waiting You're Around the book, but yeah, it was great too, and a lot of the things we talked about I think resonate with what you have in the book. So it's always a good way to do it. We give people a little teaser and then they go and they go on check out the book on Amazon, So I encourage you to do that. I'll put the links in the show notes and everybody can check those out. And just Andrea really appreciate you being on the show and have enjoyed the conversation.

00:48:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much again for having me here.

00:48:15
Speaker 1: No problem, all right, everybody, Well we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. So thanks for being here and take care, right. I just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.