🛤️Trying to raise "perfect" kids by following rigid rules? Shifting from religious checklists to a Spirit-led walk in wisdom.

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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly propicient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian and doctor James Spencer. I'm joined by doctor Ashish Marma, and today we're going to continue our conversation about Christian manhood. We're taking a slightly different direction because Father's Day is coming up, and so we're going to talk a little bit about men as fathers, men in the.

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Speaker 2: Role of fathers.

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Speaker 1: And to do that, we're going to take a look at Ephesians five and six. Primarily, we're going to start in Ephesians five fifteen through twenty one, which really is the prologue, let's say, or the beginning of a section that discusses the relationships between various different roles within the Christian community. So husband's wives, children, parents, and master's servants. But five point fifteen through twenty one really does begin to set this up. And so to begin this episode, I'll just read through this and then we're going to have a little discussion on it, and then we'll jump over to chapter six, which is where fathers and sons are fathers and children are really addressed. So here's Ephesians five fifteen through twenty one. Look carefully, then, how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore to not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery. But be filled with the spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another of reverence for Christ. That's where we're going to start, and this sets the context for everything we're going to say really about being a father going forward. So any initial thoughts on this section.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the it's important to note that all of these these parts of the passage that are easy to separate out are really flowing one from from one to the next, right, Like we're working from five point fifteen forward, and then we're picking up at the beginning of chapter six. We're not skipping over the husbands and wives part at this particular moment, or the masters and slaves part for any other reason. Then they're really blocking. They're getting to the same pathos of what this formation as people who are to imitate Christ look like. But the dynamics of exactly how that look in different relationships are what at play here. Right, So the way that one might work in an employment setting and how that might look like to have the mind of Christ is different than one might have towards a spouse in kind, but not in pathos, And the way that looks as a parent, you know, it's going to have a sort of a different sort of authority structure than between a spouse. The parent is a parent, not a friend, right, and the child is the child, not a friend. But the same underlying reality of being wise of having the mind of Christ is what's a play. So this is really what Paul's trying to parse out for the church and ephesis in ways that we've talked about of about paradigms or patterns, where we have to discern what does that pattern look like in the present in our places. And the key here is to be four by the mind of Christ in a way that it's going to it's going to bring forth the wisdom. And I think that dynamic of wisdom is something we're going to keep bringing up, should keep bringing up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that when we think about wisdom, you know, Old Testament context, wisdom is really understanding we could we can summarize it as understanding how to live before a holy God, how to live maybe under God's authority. I would say it's deeply, you know, conceptually connected to something like a discipleship. Right, We're constantly learning to live in light of reality, and that reality is particularly the reality of the trying God. And so I think that wisdom here is, Look, let's understand the context. You're no longer in the world in the sense that you are trapped and controlled and under the influence of the systems and structures of the society in which you live, and these are the only possibilities you have because now you have been connected to the God who is capable of doing abundantly more than you could ever ask or think.

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Speaker 2: That's Ephesians three ten. Right.

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Speaker 1: So you've got this new vista of opportunities opened up, and what that requires of you is to live into those things, to live wisely as opposed to unwisely. And we sort of see that dichotomy here in fifteen through twenty one. We see it with the do not get drunk with wine, for that as debauchery, but be filled with the spirit. There's a different control mechanism that should be part of your life. It shouldn't be the wine. You shouldn't be allowing the wine to change your behavior in such a way that you lose control of yourself. What you should be doing is handing over that control the Holy Spirit, allowing the Holy Spirit to fill you. And what comes out of that is then addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and make a melody all over the heart, giving thanks always and everything in the name of God the Father, and then submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. That last phrase, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ is au and what we understand to be carried through the rest of chapter five and into chapter six.

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Speaker 2: And I would just make one comment on that.

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Speaker 1: Number One, I think all of these from verse nineteen all the way through twenty one are intended to give us a picture of the sort of relationships we're supposed to have. Right These are supposed to be God honoring relationships, things that are constantly pointing to and glorifying the Lord God. But I think the submission aspect is important for a couple of reasons. Number One, it's connected to the reverence of Christ. And so sometimes it's easy for us to think in terms of especially as we're talking about the male female relationships, but I would also say the husband or the father son relationships. It's easy to think about the submission part. Right one is to be submissive to the other. My kids should listen to me, because I'm the dad and I have the authority and I know better.

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Speaker 2: That submission part.

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Speaker 1: Is easy to think about. What I think is difficult to think about is out of reverence for Christ. So when I think of that phrase, I think of then a reorientation of the relationship I have with my children because that relationship emerges out of my relationship with Christ. I'm doing these things out of reverence for Jesus, and thus it is a constant characteristic, not something situational.

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Speaker 2: It's not manipulative.

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Speaker 1: It's a constant disposition that I carry with me that out of reverence for Christ, I am going to act in a certain way, even if acting in a certain way is not affecting the behaviors that I would like it to affect.

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Speaker 2: I don't get the.

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Speaker 1: Opportunity to, as we'll see in chapter six, provoke my children to anger just to make something work right.

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Speaker 2: If I'm doing this out of reverence for.

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Speaker 1: Christ, I'm constantly responding to Him from within this situation, as opposed to responding to the situation as if he were absent or irrelevant. And so I think the father's commitment to Christ is out of reverence for Christ is paramount in this whole section. The husband, the father, the master servant, all of these are ordered to a reverence to Christ. And out of that reverence for Christ, then come these other behaviors in relation to the other party.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to pivot specifically to how what you're describing is in some ways a gloss on this. Be wise, don't be foolish, Yeah, because it's worth noting that there's not actually much content that's on display here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So what does it mean to not provoke your child? Right? Or, as the First Nation's translation says, don't make them angry, don't push them too hard so that they become angry. Well, that really is an impossible generalization to make, right. We have multiple children and they have their own personalities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could.

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Speaker 3: I know how I could make my kids angry. I also know the degree to which I can push them, and I know how to push them. Yeah, but I know how to push them in a way that you know, there's a way of pushing them that can force them in some sense to lose their center where it's it's now counterproductive, And there's a way to push them that motivates them. Right, And that just comes from acquaintance, It comes from being their parents and understanding their personalities. Right. I gathered a long time ago that my oldest kid has my has my for better or worse, deep competitiveness. And if I want to motivate him, just simply trying to persuade him is going to get me nowhere, right, he's he's stubborn. If he's made up his mind, he's made up his mind unless you can stoke those competitive juices. So sometimes it's just a matter of going to the second born and getting her involved in something, and suddenly he's got this sense of oh, I can't let her get ahead of me, I can't let her beat me, And now he's after it right, right, And that's just a matter of knowing who they are, right and what we're being called to here doesn't have the content because I think Paul understands, and light of the fact that he begins the discourse with being wise, don't be foolish, is that there's no one way to do that right. And I think that's sometimes where we get into trouble when we think of especially when we think about conversations and masculinity. It's a very prescribed way of thinking, and therefore it's a very prescribed way of motivating, and that pushing might work for one person one child, that doesn't work for the other. And there's where the wisdom comes in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Yeah, it's interesting. My wife and I have so my son.

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Speaker 2: We've kind of joke it isn't exactly how this works.

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Speaker 1: But jokingly, my wife generally handles my son and I generally handled my daughters, just the way the personalities fell, right. She's got a better temperament to deal with my son usually and understands how his mind works and what he's trying to do and how he thinks better than I do. And alternatively, I generally have a better sense of how to handle the girls and help them along and like give them appropriate challenges and those kind of things.

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Speaker 2: And so we've had that dichotomy.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot of conversations in our household about how to go about parenting, and we often have different ways of doing that.

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Speaker 2: You know, Kim is just by nature.

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Speaker 1: She was an overachiever in school, maybe just a normal achiever in school.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I was an underachiever. It's probably the better way to say it. You know.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't afraid to try, and she really put a lot of effort in the things, and so when she sees the kids doing less than that effort, sometimes she's really frustrated by it. Whereas I kind of sit back and I'm like, listen, I learned a lot through non effort, right, I earned valuable lessons getting c's in certain classes, right, Like, I get how this works. And so sometimes you just have to let this play out because pushing them isn't going to help. And so there's this one story we've told the numerous times in our household where I had already taken the act and my mom was adamant that I take the SAT as well. The sit happened to land on the day of prom or some dance I don't remember. It was a problem that might be a mythical thing, but anyway, it was some dance that I was going to.

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Speaker 3: So it sounds good for the story.

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Speaker 1: It sounds good for the story. So I was like, Mom, I don't need to tell Like I already had the act score. It was good, no problem, Like, I don't need to do this. This is this is ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to do this. She's like, yeah, you're doing it. So she drove me to the place. I went in.

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Speaker 1: I literally filled c down the whole way. I was done it about twenty minutes and I came out. She's like, well, how to go. I'm like, oh, I think it went pretty bad. I mean I tanked those SAPs like nobody's business. But it was one of those things where I think, you know, looking back on it, I wasn't honoring her at all, right, and what she was really trying to get me to do, but she was also pushing me past these points, right, and not really giving me the leash to sort of say, Okay, you know, I shouldn't push him this far because this is not going.

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Speaker 2: To go well.

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Speaker 1: And so I think we both learned a little lesson there, me more in retrospect than her. But but it was an interesting point, like I think there are these things that you do have to learn about your kids.

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Speaker 2: How far can you push them?

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Speaker 1: Where are they going? Where is it going to make it hard for them to really honor you? And is there a good reason to push them beyond that point?

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Speaker 2: You know?

00:14:10
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where it kind of gets to do, because they are going to be angry at you sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Right.

00:14:15
Speaker 1: That's the only pushback i'd give on that first Nation translation is I think your kids are going to be angry with you at some point.

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Speaker 3: That's okay, It's okay, yeah, right.

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Speaker 1: I would just say, I think what the heart of this in what we're talking about is six' one through, four you, know in verse, Four, fathers do not provoke your children to, anger but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord WHAT i think is going on there, is do not provoke your children to anger such that it becomes impossible for them to honor, you, right don't don't necessarily anger, them but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord that's not often. COMFORTABLE i, mean if we've all experienced The lord's discipline and, instruction it's not like we ache for that. Necessarily it'd be great if you just thought we were amazing as, Is but you, know occasionally discipline and instruction is, necessary and it's not always. Comfortable and SO i think there's a sense here in which we just want to make sure we're not. Reading don't ever trigger your kids right right opposed, two don't push them so far that they're not going to be able to honor you, anymore to fulfill that role of child within the.

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Speaker 3: Relationship, Yeah so What i'm hearing is there's there are two swings of the. Pendulum on one end of the, swing there's the kind of parenting that it's just constantly writing your, child, yeah and then there's the other end of the pendulum where one's so worried about writing their child that they don't push them at. All, yeah and and the kid might get upset by the push if you're never pushing. Them and If i'm hearing you, correctly that's, okay that's not that's not really the point. Here the point here is there can there be a recognition maybe, sometime maybe it's a long time down the line of, wow you you really were seeking what was best for, me and what's best for? Me wasn't just this idea of and maybe this is the instructive. Point isn't just simply this idea of WHAT i? Want but it's about training your child specifically to be the sort of people that can then themselves as they grow up in their new relations and their new and there new ways of relating to people as an older person had the mind Of. Christ that's. Right so you, know there was That there was that documentary that came out a few years, Ago The Last Day. Ants, yeah that ended up being initially it was billed as The Last dance of The Chicago, bulls but really it was The Michael jordan, documentary, Right and a lot of controversy came out of, that you, know growing up the big, Bulls Michael jordan VAN i was in my. Element BUT i also realized pretty quickly things that were new to a lot of people weren't so new to me as growing up in The chicago area and having access, to you, know the stories of what was going on behind the. Scenes.

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Speaker 2: Right but like the.

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Speaker 3: Revelation to many Was Michael jordan's kind of a, jerk yeah you? Know AND i, thought, unabashedly so, Yeah and that wasn't really new to, me but it was instructive to me BECAUSE I i have to confess THAT i empathized With Michael jordan's. PERSONALITY i was the guy on my basketball team who rode people BECAUSE i, thought you're not really putting the effort in yeah you. Know and not everyone responded the same. WAY i remember one, teammate especially WHEN i WAS i was the captain of the team my last, year and one of my teammates responded really well to, that and he was a really good. Player by the end of the, YEAR i had another teammate who was ready to leave the, team AND i didn't have the wisdom at seventeen eighteen to be able to recognize maybe there's one approach for one person and not for the, other, right, Right and that's something that retrospectively was the training THAT i think of my. COACH i had a really good coach that. Year he interestingly enough that the player THAT i rode that it worked really well on was the coach's, son and he was more than happy to let me ride his. Son but with this other kid who just it didn't work, well he would step in and he wouldn't step in a way to, SAY i want to take away that, fire but he stepped in a way that was very, distinctively this guy doesn't respond to. That so let's put a little bit of a gap between you and, him and the way that you're doing that in a way That i'm not going to put a gap between you and my, son because he responds well to it and he's becoming a better. Player AND i think AS i started to learn that son wasn't responding to his father's, teaching just because sometimes kids just, Don't, Yeah and so that kind of became a way for, him and that was really good, parenting is What i'm getting out, here right on his, part not just in the way that he managed, me who wasn't his, son but we had a really good. Relationship but actually the way in which he managed his own son by, saying you know, what sometimes It's i'm going to step back And i'm going to let captain of the basketball team here ride you in a way THAT i know you're going to respond to him that you won't respond to. Me that was, wisdom you, Know and Maybe Michael jordan had that wisdom as. WELL i don't know we had the. Documentary we weren't on the inside, circles BUT i think about that of at least the way it was presented of some of those guys didn't appreciate it so. Much no, right but they did. Wow but they did. Win they did, win and maybe that's the solve all for. That but for our purposes, here it's it's a recognizing that there was a time and a, place as we saw in that documentary From Michael jordan's, approach and there was a time and a place For Scottie pippen's. Approach in my, case my coach sort of embodied both of. Those and that's where the wisdom, is, Right and what you want ultimately is for your kid to grow up to also have that, wisdom. RIGHT i want all of my four, kids if they have, kids to recognize that not all their kids are not the, same and all my kids have different struggles and all they have different, strengths and you got to work. Accordingly AND i think that's kind of the motive That paul's working with. Here, sorry go, Ahead.

00:21:06
Speaker 1: No it's been. Interesting you, know we have three, kids three biological. Children we've had our with us their whole, lives and then we've had numerous foster kids over the, years and then we just.

00:21:18
Speaker 2: Adopted she was four at the, time she's now.

00:21:20
Speaker 1: Five we haven't had them for their whole, lives, Right, like they had a history before. Us read this book Called The Body keeps The, score which is really an interesting.

00:21:35
Speaker 2: Book have you read?

00:21:36
Speaker 3: IT i, Have, yeah.

00:21:39
Speaker 1: Fascinating book and what you AND i can't summarize it all in a couple of, sentences but part of what you learn is that trauma sticks with, you and so these things like you, know you get you, know we got this little girl when she was. Three she'd had a history before. Us some of that was very difficult. Living no abuse, necessarily but there are these developmental stages that you go through as a. Child you hear about it with you, Know Eastern block orphanages where kids don't get held and they develop attachment disorders and things like. That and so there are all these different sort of developmental stages that kids go, through and when they miss, that they don't just automatically catch those, up like it tends to stick with. Them thus the body keeps the. Score and So i'm having to adapt the WAY i father her to h pretty drastically from the way THAT i fathered my own. Kids, right the ones who are with, you you, know they get used to the, sarcasm they get used to the you, know they get used to dad being. Dad but the five year old needs something a little. Different and, so like she came in yesterday and was, like, HEY i cut my, hair And i'm, like, well that's probably not.

00:23:05
Speaker 2: Good you.

00:23:06
Speaker 1: Know in my, Head i'm, like what the, heck, Right i'm just trying to get a workout. In you're out there cutting your hair, Off like what is?

00:23:11
Speaker 2: Happening and SO i.

00:23:15
Speaker 1: Had to like think through my response to, that like what do you do here to make it clear that she can't cut her own? Hair and she probably shouldn't be cutting any of her body parts, right seems like a, corollary but without like creating a context where she doesn't now feel, safe like those old feelings of insecurity and abandonment don't come back. In it's been a very i would, say difficult parenting, challenge, right because you, know with my, kids it's, like, Okay i'm never letting you touch scissors, Again like this is. Crazy you're LUCKY i don't shave your, head, right you, know like like those are things you can say when they're own. Children they've been with you, forever and it's like they have safety and security and now just know, like, OOPS i did something, wrong and dad's a little. Miffed but with a new, kid Like i'm happy to watch a little bit more. Carefully and so it's interesting and it does require a certain degree of thinking through to make, sure as we see here In ephesian, six Then i'm not provoking that child to.

00:24:19
Speaker 2: Anger in other, words That i'm not.

00:24:21
Speaker 1: So alienating this, child so pushing her away and making her develop a distrust of me that will ultimately mean that she can't really honor. Me and so how do you bring someone up in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord, well that's not a set. Box there's no checklist or recipe for. That you're having to sort of massage this into the personality of the, individual as opposed to treating all five year olds as if they're just all five year.

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Speaker 3: Olds. Right WHAT i especially learned from story is the effectiveness of the threat from a parent That i'm going to shave your. Head my mother growing, up her threat to me was a Jamat, kotonga which is IN d, Four i'm gonna shave your. Head it, lasts it, Works it, works except THAT i went to college and THEN i shaved my head and THEN i did it for the next ten, years so that the effect of that it was gone. Eventually but it worked in the moment BECAUSE i thought PART i didn't realize that's what she was actually saying to. Me but that's neither here nor, there, Right.

00:25:36
Speaker 1: No BUT i think at the end of the, day What paul's trying to get at with, this and he has a similar passage, here and just so people, know Like colossians three conveys a very similar, thing used a slightly different verb instead of, honor its, obey WHICH i think there's a ton of conceptual overlap. THERE i think we could try to make some, distinction and there probably is some, distinction BUT i would say the semantic overlap is such that you're really not distinguishing much between.

00:26:03
Speaker 2: Honoring and obeying a.

00:26:04
Speaker 1: PARENT i don't, think in other, words when you're using, obey let me say it like. This sometimes when we use, honor we have some sort of dispositional sense about, it an emotional kind of background for, this where we, say, oh it's not just, obeying it's also recognizing the authority and appreciating the, person and that's. Honoring obeying is just, WELL i Guess i'll do what they say because they're in. CHARGE i don't actually think that's a good way to distinguish these biblical. TERMS i think, obedience like when we obey The, lord we're not just behaviorally doing it and hoping he doesn't notice that our it's not in the right. Place there's a bigger picture there that conceptually overlaps with what we would normally understand is. Honor and SO i think these are very close terms within The New. Testament but In colossians three twenty one it says fathers do not provoke your children unless they become. Discouraged now that word provoke is a different word than we see In ephesian, six BUT i think overall it's a very similar. Notion and if we look up above that and we see what the husbands and wives, instructions our wives submit to your husband's as is fitting in The, lord husbands love your. Wives we see that In ephesians. Five this is the main thrust for hubsmans and do not be harsh with. Them and so you, know again it's much when we think of these as reciprocal. Relationships, right there's not a call for wives to submit to an abusive husband something like. That, right what's being called here is this reciprocal relationship where submission becomes easy because the husbands are not treating their wives in an inappropriate. Fashion AND i think we see the same thing with fathers and. Children we see the same thing with bond servants and. Masters, right that these relationships are supposed to be, reciprocal and so we know that children are to obey our you, know or to obey. Us that doesn't make it mean that we make it hard for them to do, so, Right it means that we make it easy for them to. Do so we recognize that this is their, role and our role is to facilitate that obedience by being honorable ourselves worthy of. It AND i think that's what is at sort of the heart of these passages is that fathers are to be worthy of, honor and thus the children now honoring the honor they are supposed to give comes.

00:28:38
Speaker 2: Easy doesn't mean we're.

00:28:41
Speaker 1: Going to be, perfect but it does mean that we have to exhibit that character such that it's easy to honor.

00:28:47
Speaker 3: Us. Right, so to your, point If vision six speaks of children honoring your, Parents colautions three very parallel in the way that the passages are set up and what they're doing children obey your, parents there does seem to be the interchangeability as to what this honoring looks. Like BUT i think to your, point the reciprocal nature of these, things it's not there's one kind of reciprocity for. Friends, yes you're on a similar status level social. Level we don't go around saying obey your, friends but we do have a notion of you treat your friends the way that you'd like to be. Treated, right if you have a child who has troubles, sharing but it is more than eager to expect to be shared With you address that, right because there's some sort of reciprocity. There but the key dynamic there is that there's there's kind of a mutual recognition for that plane of social parallel right where they're on the same, place pane of. Respectability that doesn't change when we're talking about the different status in some sense of a parent with a, child a father with a. Child what changes is what that might look. Like but maybe a way of saying what you're saying is if children are to honor their, parents the, parents and in our case we're talking about the, father especially in this, podcast the father is to be, honorable right to conduct himself in a way in which he's worthy of honor. Or As i'll steal from one of my friends who in our in Our indian, culture it's a very important tenant to teach your kids to respect your. Elders it's not as so well taught that a parent should be. Respectable so he does a good job of reminding us fathers be. Respectable, yeah, right, That AND i think that's kind of the thrust of what is getting at here of it doesn't mean sometimes as you've pointed, out we're not going to make a child. Mad sometimes you got to make you. Know i've had moments with my children Where i've, SAID i get that you're mad at, me And i'm not sorry about. THAT i accept that you're mad at. Me but what you need to come to grips with here is THAT i need it's my it's my parental, duty my fatherly duty to make sure you know that you KNOW x is not. Okay, yeah or it's my job for you to understand that you can't grow up thinking this is the way in which we're going to treat. Others so WHEN i think about the child that maybe this is close to, home maybe it's not who is who expects others to share but won't so readily. SHARE i want my child to see the dis equilibrium within that. RIGHT i want her to grow up to be able to understand that these patterns don't solve. Themselves and that's part of this dynamic of the role of the parent is to, say you, know as you grow, older you're going to live in a lot of, disequilibrium, disequality lack of equity. Situations even if you can't affect that on a broader. Level what we're being asked to do here is to is to live in that kind of a. Way so it's a training. Ground and you might be upset with me for addressing. This you might be upset with the lengths That i've gone to to to show you that this isn't. It and maybe sometimes it's just simply because you don't share so well and because you expect others to. Share and this, Moment i'm stepping in And i'm not letting that person share with.

00:32:46
Speaker 2: You, yeah or you.

00:32:48
Speaker 3: Might want that, thing And i'm going to say you're not getting, it AND i want you to know why because you need to understand that reciprocity is, important, right or whatever the situation might. Be that's very. Different Then i'm coming to you And i'm just going to have some completely nonsensical sort of discipline to get to you that doesn't connect in your, Mind like that's the lack of, respectability, Right.

00:33:14
Speaker 1: Like i'm Gonna i'm going to take away what you wouldn't share and you're never going to get it.

00:33:18
Speaker 2: Again, Right it's not exactly.

00:33:20
Speaker 3: That that's a very different thing then in this, Moment, yeah we're not going to do, This, yeah AND.

00:33:26
Speaker 1: I, think you, know if we look at the Way god works with people in, scripture we see this in a number of different.

00:33:31
Speaker 2: Ways you.

00:33:32
Speaker 1: Know, obviously when we think about the discipline and the structure instruction.

00:33:35
Speaker 2: Of The, lord one of the one of the.

00:33:37
Speaker 1: Paradigms THAT i would go to is like The israelites in the, desert, Right and we usually think of that as a highly negative. Experience paul uses it as a highly negative.

00:33:47
Speaker 2: Experience.

00:33:47
Speaker 1: Right these things were written so, that you, know for, us so that we wouldn't make these same, mistakes and it didn't turn out so well for The israelites in the. Desert it's, like, okay fair, Enough that's that's one way of thinking about. It BUT i would put on the opposite end of, THAT i would Put. Abraham if you look at the life Of, Abraham abraham consistently MAKE i, mean he goes down To egypt twice and lies About sarah being his sister instead of his. Wife neither of those times are we ever Showing god Disciplining. Abram he's brought back up with great, wealth like he's you, know he sort of plunders The egyptians on the way back, up you, know he has this affair With hagar and Has. Ishmael, Well god doesn't Punish ishmael or you, know make that generation.

00:34:36
Speaker 2: Anathema he Blesses.

00:34:38
Speaker 1: Ishmael and all the, WHILE i think what he's trying to Teach abram, is, no, look this is how you live with. Me this is what it looks like to have this relationship with, me and this is the way your response needs to change as you're living before. Me and that comes to a sort of a climax with the near sacrifice Of, isaac Where abram is going to Give isaac back To god in this act of, sacrifice and it demonstrates That abraham is now one who fears The. Lord this is what the angel who comes down, says you, know After abraham's. Test BUT i think throughout that Whole abraham, cycle you don't See god quote unquote Disciplining. Abraham you see the patience of The. Lord he's not addressing every little thing That abraham does. Wrong he's Allowing abraham to understand what it looks like to live before him through this progressive. Revelation and he's not just every Time abraham screws, up like on top of him like that was the wrong way to do, This and SO i think part of WHAT i see in that is there's room for. Both there's room for the in the, moment we've got to address this and it's time now to address, it and there's also room for in this moment we're seeing a, mistake but we need to let this play out a little longer and let this person come to this.

00:35:59
Speaker 2: Themselves AND i think.

00:36:01
Speaker 1: There's both a given a, take and again they're in lies the wisdom that we have to. Develop right when do you do the one rather than the?

00:36:09
Speaker 3: Other?

00:36:10
Speaker 2: Right when do you restrain.

00:36:12
Speaker 1: From offering this instruction and this discipline and allow this to play out a little? Further when do you step in and say, no, no, no, no we're not doing that right?

00:36:20
Speaker 2: Now and that appears.

00:36:22
Speaker 1: In my, Estimation it's appeared differently in different, ages especially if my kids are getting a little. Older my son's, twenty my daughters are. SEVENTEEN i find myself doing a whole lot more Of i'm going to have to let this one play. Out Like i'm going to let this one play. OUT i do a lot. Less, hey we need to address this like right, now, Right it's like there's going to be consequences for this that are going to be painful for. Them at some, point it's going to be painful enough for them that they're going to start to get, it and my role almost is to let those consequences.

00:36:57
Speaker 2: Come.

00:36:57
Speaker 1: Now it's sort of, like you, know WE i think we've mentioned this, before, like you, know you put your hand on a hot. Stove you're not going to let your kid just sit there with his hand on the hot stove and let it you, know fifth degree burn or.

00:37:09
Speaker 2: Whatever you probably wouldn't even want.

00:37:12
Speaker 1: Them to touch the hot, stove, Right and so there's there's a sense in Which i'm not Gonna i'm sort of standing back saying how far CAN i let this?

00:37:20
Speaker 2: Go is there any danger?

00:37:21
Speaker 1: Here is there really a consequence for me at taking this approach that's going to be very detrimental for my Kids versus that moment Where i'm, like, no this will be a really good life lesson And i'll be there to help them process it as they go through. It it's not comfortable at, all but you kind of have to assess based on this, first like at what point do they not need another lecture from, dad like a pre lesson about what could happen in this, scenario, right? Right and at what point is that going to be provoking to the point where it's like that just wants to control where we go and what we do and how this. Works and you, Know i'm just finding it a little more frequent with my older kids THAT i have to do it the other.

00:38:12
Speaker 3: Way, so, yeah that makes. Sense and What i'm hearing in this as a parallel with the way the way That god was Treating. Abraham of, Course god is the one that we see above all as. Wise, yeah there's there's such there's such a close and intimate understanding of your children and even more so That god has of his children. Us, yeah to be able to recognize how do you work in this particular? Environment, Right, yeah you mentioned the stove top. ONE i immediately think of my daughter who's now, ten who when she was probably around, two just had this. Fascination and to a, degree it's when you're, two you're looking at an angle where you see the flame on that stove in a way that when you're my age and my, height you're not you just don't see. It and that drew her in and she wanted to touch, it AND i get in her, way try to convince her not to, yea and one, day When i'm turned, around she did it, anyway and she learned really. Fast there was no holding her, hand, there there was, touch gone, cry she. Done she's never had problems like that again right. Now of COURSE i didn't want her to touch the, stove but she learned that, way and it was instructive to me as a parent to watch her and, Say, okay sometimes this child of mine needs to learn that. Way i've never had that problem with my oldest son because my oldest son has a greater propensity to. Fear and IF i would have said something to him at that age WHEN i, did i'd say something to, me that is Big. Awi and of COURSE i don't talk to him like that, now but that's all he needed to. Hear it's like he made this calculation in his head of BIG. aUI i don't like BIG. aUI i've experienced Big. Awi we'll stay away from anything attached to Big. Ali, Right and my second child had to learn the hard. Way my third child in some ways was like my second child on. Steroids. Right my third child broke her, arm despite warnings over and over again not do, something and that lasted about six months and then she started doing, again Like, okay that was a short lived lesson the grand scheme of, things you, know but that's part of the, process right of understanding who your kid is and recognizing so that there's the wisdom of. Understanding there's also the wisdom of the, goal Which i'm also hearing from you that we've meant that the goal ultimately is there's a commission to raise them to be certain kinds of. People we've all met those peers of ours who are, petulant they can't take no for an. Answer they seem to have impulse. Control and you don't want to project too far into the past and assume what parenting that child might have, been but you get a certain idea of they never actually had to learn that lesson of impulse. Control that's, right and now it manifests in things LIKE i want to, HAVE i got to, HAVE i will, have you, Know, yeah and that's what you want to you, know and to increasing. Degrees i'd imagine right with your with your girls at, seventeen with your, son especially at, twenty that's maybeing an easier lesson to point to the future than it is for my twelve year old who doesn't quite have the idea of what a credit card might be and how it could be so easy to overspend on a credit card with impulse control, problems, right or balancing a, Budget and so that's part of it as, well, right recognizing frame of, life entering into new forms of maturity brain development that aren't, rules but it's general understandings that the tactic, changes and that's part of being. RESPECTABLE i, think.

00:42:16
Speaker 1: Yeah they're they're they're approaching new challenges and so you sort of have, to at Least i've found you sort of adapt to the challenges.

00:42:24
Speaker 2: That are before.

00:42:25
Speaker 1: You and you, KNOW i would say the last Thing i'd just throw out there is maybe this is a topic for the next episode because we could get into. It but we found that it wasn't only us that we had to worry about exasperating our. Children my son had a real hard life in high, school, right just the administrative grind of high, school all the required, classes the, repetition like it just wasn't built for. Him right, now he's a he's going to college In Saint, Louis Saint Louis. University he's a double major in history and, theology and he's doing. Great you would never tell that from his high school. Grades and like high school was just like this hated thing that he used to, Do like he hated it just drove him, crazy and you could see him becoming more and more.

00:43:22
Speaker 2: Exasperated right.

00:43:24
Speaker 1: Now we didn't have a we didn't have an outlift for, him Right, like we couldn't take him out of that, situation so we had to sort of help him through. It with our, daughters we saw the same, thing like they were just becoming frustrated and, exasperated and so we did have an outlet for.

00:43:39
Speaker 2: Them they're going to junior college to finish up their high. School they like that a lot.

00:43:42
Speaker 1: Better it's a little more, freedom they can be a little more. Autonomous they're still getting all their coursework. In BUT i think there's something, too sort of the structures that we live in that are AND i THINK i do mean it like this co parenting our kids right it would drive me. Crazy And i'd hear teachers talk, about, well we want teacher kids, responsibility and it's, like my kids are already. Responsible so maybe you, know AND i don't think that was me being a Helicopter. Dad it was just one of those things where it's, LIKE i don't think that you know them seeing you turn their papers around in a three month, period whereas you're demanding that they get it, in you, know printed it in on time so that you can take three months to grade, Them i'm not exactly sure they're learning responsibility from, that.

00:44:33
Speaker 2: Right SO i think a lot of it was.

00:44:39
Speaker 1: That's not to disparage high, schools not to disparage. Teachers it's just to sit back and Go sometimes kids don't fit in the places you have, them and there has to be some cognizance of that as, well because there's only so much we can do as. Parents it's really rough to get my son out of high. School he had a lot of. Trouble my, daughters we were really happy to have the release valve BECAUSE i think they'd be struggling the same way.

00:45:04
Speaker 2: Too just didn't work for.

00:45:08
Speaker 1: Them, SO i, MEAN i think that's a whole other aspect of this is that we're.

00:45:15
Speaker 2: We're not their primary.

00:45:16
Speaker 1: Influencers there's a lot of ways that kids can be, frustrated and so we have to be cognizant that they are entering into social worlds and developing their own lives in ways that in part we need to help them cope, with but also in part that we may need to help them step out.

00:45:34
Speaker 2: Of just throw that out.

00:45:36
Speaker 1: Of sort of another thought on parenting, HERE i guess, yeah.

00:45:42
Speaker 3: And in some WAYS i think you're ahead of that curve on. ME i haven't quite had to deal with those. Dynamics, yeah my kid's been, Younger but that makes a lot of. Sense and that speaks again to the sort of. Grittiness right in gardener's, terms it's that the sticking your hands and the. Dirt if you're not willing to get your hands in the, dirt perhaps because you're too afraid of having to wash your hands, afterwards you're not going to be a good. Gardener. Right if you're not able to get into the situations and understand the distinctiveness of your, KIDS i think you're going to get into the places That paul's saying to beware, of, right the exasperating of your, children the provoking them in ways that maybe maybe isn't even, Intentional, RIGHT i think THAT i think we maybe think of it too often as, Intentional and what we need to do is think of it more broadly through the lenses that he's giving, us which is everything is framed around, wisdom, right and and is referring back To, jesus the wise. One. Right and if that's the, case it's it's it's a necessity of understanding that there's not a one stop. Shop AND i think that's really telling to the fact That paul gives very little specifics in these. Passages, yeah and when we tend to think of fatherhood as bequeathed to, us as this masculine, structure it's it's far too. Specific, yeah and we end up with exasperated. Children we end up with children who become, reactive, RIGHT i don't want to be. That and of course every child is going to eventually SAY i disagree with my parents on this or that and want to do something. Different we're doing the same, thing but there is a difference between making changes and not agreeing and a whole skill rejecting because what we've seen is a lack of. Wisdom so, it's you, know maybe the end of the, day the sum is that it's a call to wisdom as parents to recognize who your kids, are recognize where they, are and know that what might be good may not be good for the. Other what might be good for your neighbor's kids may not be good for your, kids and vice.

00:47:54
Speaker 1: VERSA i, think why don't we dig into that next. Time we're about out of time on, this so why don't we dig back into that next time and talk a little bit more, about you, know those aspects of. FATHERHOOD i think there's other things we can talk through that would sort of dispel the myth that there's some sort of recipe for raising, kids and we can dive a little bit more into that next. Time so thanks for this. Conversation, man this is helpful and. Fun it's always fun talking about the. Kids as much AS i bemoon having, them they KNOW i love, them so it's fun to talk about them and enjoyed. This so thanks for being, Here thanks everybody for, listening and we'll catch you on the next episode Of Thinking Christian Take. CARE i just want to take a second to thank the team At Life audio for their partnership with us on The Thinking christian. Podcast if you go to lifeaudio dot, com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their. Network they've got shows about, Prayer bible, study, parenting and more